In my novel, The Cost of Weather, there is a scene where the protagonist and his closest friend are having coffee in a cafe. Simon, the protagonist, has asked his friend to meet him, having reached a crisis point and in need of advice.
When this scene was read at retreat last summer, the two men in the group were quick to point out that “real men” didn’t hang out in cafes with other men. They didn’t meet for coffee. Really? I thought. How strange.
The advice sought in this particular scene is what to do about women always wanting to talk, especially about feelings. Simon has lost not just his daughter, but also the potential love of a very juicy woman, and he has begun to realize that perhaps his reluctance to step up emotionally may be at the heart of these losses. But he is, in fact, lost when it comes to how to proceed.
When I wrote the scene, there was consideration on how to get these guys together for this particular conversation. I would speculate that instinctively I knew this was an unusual situation for men to be in together. So when it came to light at the retreat just how odd it was, it made me consider the implications.
Women have coffee, lunch, dinner together, they go for walks, take care of each other’s kids, go to movies, take yoga together, go on retreat or even a vacation together, and so on. They cook together, cry together, lean on each other…and men? Not so much, on observation, do they buddy up. If they are sporty, they might fish or play hockey, or watch the game in a bar with some beer. They might golf or play tennis, but I am hard pressed to think of what two straight men might do together alone. They just don’t. I think that’s sad.
Last summer, I was involved in a conversation with two old friends – men in their sixties – about why there are so many more mature single women than there are men. I was shocked and delighted to hear them agree that it was because women didn’t need men in the same way that men needed women. One put forth that women know how to take care of themselves, how to have fun, and… they hang out with each other, whereas men struggle with being on their own and… don’t hang out with each other.
I speculate that it is part acculturationn, part hard-wiring and part anxiety around homosexuality that keeps men from having intimate platonic relationships. I still think it’s sad.
Women rock. We have fun together. We hold each other up. We champion each other, cheer each other on, give each other the truth, grab an arm if the other is about to step in front of a train…
I may be out of line, but I’m keeping the scene in the book. Simon’s friend tells him to suck it up; that it’s the price you pay for what you get in return. Maybe I’ll take the part about him hearing the Bach Cello Suites on the sound system and wanting to put his head on the table and weep, but frankly, I have no doubt that a man would feel this way if he’d lost his daughter, even if he wouldn’t admit it to his friend, or even to his lover.
You bring up a valid point Deepam. Men don’t do coffee, or walks, or anything that involves moments open to self-reflection when they are together. They do activities. They play sports, go to a game or event, build something. But doing something that if the conversation was still for a while (or nil the whole time), it wouldn’t be awkward. The only thing I can think of that my husband does with other men that doesn’t involve an activity is going out for beer and wings – where they have full mouths the entire time.
It is sad, but I think only women think so. I nurture my son the same as my two daughters – but he doesn’t want to share everything. Even at 12, it exhausts him when I try to get in his head too much, or have him open up. My daughters on the other hand, give it all freely with grand details.
Venus and Mars. What can you do?
As for Simon – would going out for wings instead of coffee make it work? I probably would take out the Bach Cello Suites…lol. Too good to be true.
Great post!
They do the beer and wings thing a few times in the book. This is a crucial scene and I wanted to give it weight by having them face-off, as it were. Okay okay, I’ll take out the music and the weeping…. thanks, Noelle.
Good observations, Deepam. I noticed the same thing when my father lived for 5 years in a retirement home. NO MAN knocked on another’s door for a “Hi, how are ya?” But the women found plenty of opportunities to gather. Once men talked about their careers, they ran out of conversation. My father grew up with a posse of sisters and daughters, so he was socialized. He was bored stiff with the men at the home, but couldn’t entirely be included with the women.
If your protagonist feels a need to unburden himself, he would naturally arrange a one-on-one at a coffee shop. By arranging it, his friend might realize the importance of the occasion.
I’ll start observing at Tim Horton’s and see how often men meet in twos. The difference for men will likely mean it ‘s a work-related break, or the third guy was sick, or the wives are showing up late.
These are very helpful observations, Mary. About the urgency of the situation and about there being many exceptions to the generalizations around how men process. Thanks so much for your input
OK, I have to weigh in with a male perspective here (albeit a male who grew up with a twin sister, and who therefore spent the first 12 years of his life with a girl pretty much 24/7). I’d say in general your feminine insights are true, but I think they break down during periods of great crisis. For example, before I moved to Canada I lived in a 2 bedroom flat in London. A friend/colleague had just broken up with his girlfriend. They’d been buying a house together and he was still paying the mortgage, so he had no money and had been banished to the attic of this house (really, I kid you not). And he was being abused. Not physically, but emotionally. Honestly, I could see him disappearing. I had a spare room so I told him to move in. We talked. A lot. We went to the pub to watch the Arsenal games on TV too, but in between we walked and talked. We cooked and talked. We had people round to dinner, and after they all went home we did the dishes and talked. Finally, the guy I’d knew, the guy I remembered, began to emerge from the shadows of abuse. No doubt some of his ‘openness’ was alcohol fueled (perhaps that’s why coffee doesn’t work) but still, he did open up. Actually, to be honest, once it started it was kind of hard to make it stop. (winks).
Your protagonist is a sensitive guy. His friend not so much, maybe. But I totally bought it (it’s not just gay guys who are sensitive by the way, can we please abolish that lazy stereotype – I also have a gay brother and he can be as insensitive as hell sometimes). Personally, I don’t think you have to touch that scene. What’s at issue is so huge. True, he’d probably go into his cave for a week (or a month) first to think about it and internalize it and work it through. But in the end he’ll want to discuss it with his friend. The true difference (I think) is in the outcome he might expect. Women (again with the generalizations) talk through their problems by talking. Men (in general) look for solutions.
What a great response, Phil. You are one of the two people who have read this baby all the way through, so your opinion holds a lot of weight – from both the male perspective and the literary aspect. My feeling was and always has been that Simon IS a sensitive guy, but had no way of expressing it even if he knew how – with the exception of the contentious cello-playing issue. And I most certainly have met many artistic, poetic, and wonderfully heterosexual sensitive men in my life… But they don’t often chat in cafes, although they MIGHT… What do guys who don’t drink, do, if the only “safe” way of hanging out together either involves a racket, a stick or a glass of booze?
I’m so touched to hear about your relationship with that guy…
This discussion brings to mind, The Odd Couple, in a way…
Thanks so much for weighing in.
I’m siding with Phil. Simon is a musician (still?), and as you know, artistic people don’t subscribe to the same tried and old sterotypes. Could I see Simon at a bar having this conversation? Not a chance. On the other hand, would he actively seek out help? As a guy myself, I can’t say for sure. I like to solve things myself (If you want something done right do it yourself), I like to fix things. Sue says I have a “superhero” complex. Not that I want to be one, just that I feel the need to correct wrongs. I would feel awkward talking about my problems, with burdening someone else. But then I’ve never been in that position.
I don’t know that I would change it. If you are really stressing over it, make the meeting a regular occurance, like they meet every Thursday for coffee, and have Simon bring it up casually.
I think you are handling writing Simon quite well as it is.
Ooh, I love all the discussion! No, Simon doesn’t actively seek out help, but at this stage of the story, he has reached an impasse, and so has taken this desperate measure. His friend is sympathetic, but clear: do the “feeling” thing with the woman and you will reap the benefits a thousand-fold. Simon launches the topic by saying, “What is it with women anyway?” sort of thing… not, “Oh, Danny, please help me, I feel so lost and forlorn.” Ha ha… thanks for the input, Dale. Every voice helps so much.
Excellent, thought provoking post. I agree that men do get together in different ways than women do. This may be at a Sports Bar, a business, Masonic, or school meeting, but the dynamics are still different than when women get together. I love to go over to Chapters/Starbucks to write and the only men I ever see together in there are the skaters from the Mariposa School of Skating.
Inclusion is the way we learn things which are not normal for us and hence are better able to write them into our stories. Great job!
Thanks, Elizabeth. A few men have come forward to let me know that like our grammar, there are many exceptions to this “rule” of gender. Not always visible, but there nonetheless. It does seem that in general men process differently, learn differently, but that is “generally”… Thanks so much!